Subject: Re: Quirky rhymes and meter in Urdu (was: ghazal by kaash) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 09:19:49 -0600 From: Parul Trivedi Organization: UW-Madison To: Philip Nikolayev Newsgroups: alt.language.urdu.poetry,alt.language.urdu,alt.language.hindi Philip Nikolayev wrote: Adab everyone- Firaq-12 ki yaad aagayi! Philip shaib ne kya 'fitan' uthaya hai!! > > Hello! I have some questions for all you Urdu shaairi buffs, and would > appreciate any feedback. A very interesting response by Amit Trivedi > to a very interesting ghazal by Kaash, which was posted here a few > days ago, has provoked me into summarizing some of the notions and > questions I have been pondering for some time now. Parul-ji has taken > Kaash to task for a certain quirkiness in qaafiyah and meter. I have > wondered for some time as to why contemporary Urdu poetry seems to me > to be so rigorous about these things, by comparison with, say, > contemporary English poetry. There is a lot of contemporary urdu poetry, called 'azad nazam' which is not so rigorous about meter or rhyme. Of course there is a certain rhythm, or one may say beat to it that makes it poetry and not prose. Even Faiz has written some! But when, by some estimation 70% of what is written in urdu is in ghazal form, one would find it hard to come across these 'azad nazam'. Talking about 'gahzal' what makes a 'ghazal' a "ghazal' is its form- meter and rhyme and 'radif' for which there is no equivalent (as far as I know) in English poetry. If these rules of form are not followed than we would praise the work of any poet if its good poetry (certainly not condemn it for it is not in a ghazal form) but definitely would not call the composition a 'ghazal'. Think of it as a sonnet - you would not call other poetry, however good, a sonnet if it is not in a sonnet form! Also, what seems to be rigorous as far as ghazal form is considered is far from that. Within a certain meter there is enough flexibility to express one feelings. ( I have elaborated this further down in the discussion after "patta patta" the couplet you have quoted form Mir.) hence, poets do not find the need to throw away the form. > > For example, there is a well-established concept of "slant rhyme" or > "off-rhyme" in contemporary English verse. It is a kind of rhyme that > derives its pleasure precisely from the fact that it is a rhyme, yet > not precise: it thus subverts expectation, as it were. Some of the > greatest English poets of this century are famous for such > rhymes. Take these lines of Dylan Thomas, for example: > > I see the boys of summer in their ruin > Lay the gold tithings barren, > Setting no store by harvest, freeze the soils; > There in their heat the winter floods > Of frozen loves they fetch their girls, > And drown the cargoes apples in their tides. > > As you can see, "ruin" rhymes here with "barren," "soils" with > "girls," "floods" with "tides." There are many varieties and flavors Ø of slant rhymes. Are these used in Urdu at all? In English we have words that spell the same but have different pronunciation or have the same pronunciations but spell differently. Poets make use of language features as their language provides. Urdu does not have this feature. A word is pronounced the way it is written. But a feature of urdu is that some words have dots on the top of them and some under them. Poet have used these features to say, write verse with words that have only dots on the top of them(Fauquania - name of the figure of speech) or have dots under them (Tahtania). Imagine this is English - writing a poem with words that do not go under the line (small case p, y, g etc.) or with word that do not go above the ½ line mark such at small case b, d, f,.h, etc. What I am saying here is that each language has its features and brads will use it to it fullest. Words such as ruin/barren or floods/tides more then saying they rhyme are, in my opinion similar meaning words that any poet will use to beautify poetry in any language. viran maikada khum-o-sagar udas hain tum kya gaye ki ruth gaya din bahar ke- Faiz viran, udas, ruth are pretty much alike with each other in meaning as ruin/ barren or floods and tides. Also, in urdu there is no need for using slant rhyme. The reason ( again im my opinion) is 'radif'. A poet will use radif to give all shade of meanings to a group of words. For example, if we study Ghabil's ghazal with the 'radif' mera aage (In front of me) we'll see not only radif used to mean 'In front of me' but also as 'In comparison with me', in my presence', 'in relation to me' 'ahead of me', 'before me', etc. > For example, it seems to me that "kidhar" and "giidaR" (jackal) and > "gora"/"ghoRa" *are* definitely a rhyme in some sense, though it is an > off-rhyme (unlike, say, "kidhar" and "idhar"). Are these impermissible > in Urdu verse altogether? Why? Gora and Ghora (horse, I presume) are permissible but kidhar and giidar not. Why? Because it is not only the last sound-in this case 'r' but also the previous one is looked at when we are looking at a rhyme. Kidhar is pronounced as ke-dhar (1 and 2 in terms of meter) where as giidar is (2, 2). >Is there a term for "off-rhyme" or "slant eye" in Urdu? I am not aware of it. > What about pun-rhymes? E.g. > > abe, saale, > yeh paisa le! > > Is this a good rhyme or a bad one? I don't think there is any thing as a good rhyme or a bad rhyme. The questions is whether it is a correct rhyme or not. Saale and paisa le do rhyme. (because before 'le'. both the words have sounds that are long (2). I fail to see the 'pun' in this rhyme-unless of course 'Abe' as in Abe Lincoln is really the speakers saala! Then I think it would be very funny. Without sacrificing the form we can be very punny as some writers have shows: note per 'Note' ker do ….. (I forget the poets name. Does any one remember? Daulat aab kagaz ka tukada ban ke reha gayi Use of the word note - means one thing in English and other thing in Hindi/urdu BA kiya hai, MA kiya hai Ye bhi lagata ha Ama kiya hai ( a movie song-not a ghazal) MA in the first line mean Master of Arts whereas in the second line means 'Just for the heck of it'. > > (Please pardon my chillar shaairi. While I am a fairly widely > published poet in English, I really have no pretense to any serious > competence in Urdu versification; I am merely trying to figure out how > certain things work.) > > Now as regards meter. Does it have to be absolutely rigorous in Urdu > in order to be intelligible or delightful? English verse since Hopkins > has strongly been influenced by accentualism: the principle under > which you count only the stressed syllables and not all > syllables. This is often fused with notions of meter. The result is a > very mixed and liberal system which allows for great flexibility. Have > people tried to do quirky things with meter in Urdu verse (for > example, in ghazals)? I understand, of course, that Urdu and Hindi > meters are not based on stress, yet it seems to me that what is known > as "Hindi meters" (e.g. those found in Hindi songs) are in fact quite > close to a mix of metrical and accentual principles. Take this couplet > of Meer, which I posted some time back. > > patta patta, buuTa buuTa haal hamaara jaane hai. > jaane na jaane, gul hii na jaane baagh to saaraa jaane hai. > > These lines are (to my mind) clearly not in meter according to the > conventions of Urdu verse. Yet they sound very sweet and > beautiful. Fuzuli, in his thought-provoking posting in response to my > remarks, suggested that these lines were an example of a Hindi > meter. Fine. But how much of this sort of metrical variation does > (say, contemporary) Urdu verse permit? And could it not me made more > interesting (because more varies) with this sort of variation? But they are in meter!!! And what English verse has followed after hopkins urdu shair has had it since day one. Lets look at Mir's couplet. patta patta, buuTa buuTa haal hamaara jaane hai. jaane na jaane, gul hi na jaane baagh to saaraa jaane hai. The meter is 2 X 15 -falun falun falun falun falun falun falun fa It is true that this is an India meter(Sanskrit) but the principle of breaking down words is identical in all meters used in ghazals. Fa represents long syllables ( mee, maa, may, moo -consonant with a long vowel sound attached to it or a consonant with a short vowel sound followed by a plain consonant-such as gum as in sorrow). Also, in this meter the primary stress is on 'FA" and the secondary stress is on 'Lun'. Scanning of the couplet will be as follows: 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 pat ta pat ta bhu ta bhu ta haa lha ma ra jaa ne hai Jaa ne jaa ne gul hin jaa ne baa ghto sa ra jaa ne hai Whenever the secondary stress is permitted, we see long vowel sound as in 'Hi" shortened and na joined or gh of baagh joined with 'to' which is shortened. In the first line the same is ture for 'l' of haal and 'ha' of hamara. Long vowel sounds are permitted to be shortened wherever secondary stress is permitted but you will not see the same in "FA" since it takes the primary stress. > > Finally, here are some bit of Urdu doggerel of my own invention. I > guess this is hardly very good poetry, but my purpose is different. > > sardi men sardi lag rahi hai. > is ka sabaq sabar hi hai. > garmi meN garmi hi paRegi. > vo sabaq is men bhi rahegi. > > Could someone please comment on the meter and rhyme here? E.g., do you > think "[lag] rahi hai"/"[saba]r hi ha" is a good or "interesting" > rhyme (or does only the "hi hai" part rhyme)? The only thing I can say here is that they both are not good (correct) rhyme. (same reason as mentioned above) > > What about these lines: > > are khuda bare men tere > tanqidi irade nahin the mere. > > I know these lines are of different length, but do they jar because of > that? Do they Jar? No, I don't think so. Is it poetry? May be so. But is it a couplet (of a Ghazal)? Definitely not! > > ghar men mard hi hota hai. > sar men dard hi hota hai. > > Does this jar? This is in rhyme and meter!!! Falun Falun Falun Fa 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 ghar men mar dhi ho ta hai Sar men dar dhi ho ta hai Also here you have the figure of speech called 'Zalqafiatain' or double rhyming. Ghar and sar and dard and mard. 'Hi hota ha' is the radif and 'men' is call 'hajib'. > > Please excuse me if my musings strike you as very naive. > > koi hindi maiN na bolta huuN, koi urdu maiN na likhta huuN. > nazmoN ya kavitaaoN men maiN kuchh bhi nahiN samajhta huuN. > > That don't scan neither, no? Ah well! What can I say? ' nahin khel ai Dagh yaaron se kah do Ke aati hai urdu zabaan aate, aate' This above applies to me also!!!!! > All the best, > Ø Philip Nikolayev Amit Trivedi